Creatives Like Us Podcast - Ep4: David Oku
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"As a Black creative, I’ve had to work ten times harder to be taken seriously – that’s why my work speaks for itself." - David Oku
In this episode of Creative Like Us, Ange speaks with London-based freelance illustrator and animator, David Oku. David shares his journey from a childhood passion for drawing to establishing himself as a professional artist. He discusses the impact of early encouragement, the challenges of navigating the creative industry as a person of colour, and the importance of valuing your work.
David also reflects on his experiences in retail, his transition into freelance work, and how perseverance and skill development have shaped his career. He offers insight into balancing personal projects with commercial work, the significance of creative collaboration, and the lessons learned along the way. Whether you're an aspiring creative or an established professional, this conversation is full of inspiration and practical advice.
Links for David
Where to Find David Oku:
Instagram: @DOKUart
Website: www.davidoku.com
Links & Mentions:
Big Fat Minimalist - Anirudh Mehta
UAL - University of the Arts London
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This podcast is hosted by Angela Lyons of Lyons Creative.
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Chapters/Timestamp
Introduction and Background
Early Career & Education
Challenges & Growth
Freelance Work & Finding Value
Experiences & Representation
Major Career Moments
The Future & Teaching
Rapid-Fire Questions
Transcript
Hello and welcome to Creatives Like Us, where I speak with creatives of colour, who share journeys and stories and ideas, and how they can inspire and open up avenues in creative industries. I'm your host, graphic designer Angela Lyons, and with the help of my guests, I will bring insightful interviews and compelling stories that can inspire you to think about things differently or shape your next move. Being a creative of colour can bring its challenges - highs and lows and in betweens, but this podcast is about amplifying our voices and celebrating together. So are you ready? Let's get started with Creatives Like Us.
Angela: Hi, and welcome to the Creatives Like Us podcast. And today I'm here with David Oku, a freelance illustrator and animator. And I'm so honoured that he's here today with me. And he's such a wonderful guy that he's agreed to be here. So over to you, David, tell me a little bit about you and what you do.
David : Hello, Angela.
So my name for everyone is David Oku. I'm a digital illustrator. I would define myself like an illustrator/animator at the moment. And I'm based here in London, I'm in Battersea. And yeah, that's pretty much what I do as a job title, I would say.
Angela: Brilliant. And if you don't know, go and check out David's artwork on his Instagram, because it is just absolutely amazing. And it's just so colourful. And as you guys know, I love colour. So please go and check him out. But David, how did you start? Can you tell us about how you started in your career?
David: Um, I think since a very early age, I've always known that I love doing illustration, at least drawing I will say. I didn't know back then if I would become an illustrator, or what I would do with my craft, but I started very early, like drawing and scribbling all around the house. Anything that was blank will become like a battlefield of pen, markers, crayons and anything. So I don't know. I just feel like I had this mega passion since I was a kid, and the older I got, I always dreamed about using that craft in the future, and letting it become some kind of a job for me. And I started noticing when I was in high school that whatever I will do with art competition and things like that, I will be winning a lot of times and people will be like, ‘Wow, you're really good at that”.
But I didn't really, I used to just copy art - draw what I see. And then after High School, I discovered, I don't know, a passion for graphic design? And funnily enough, one of my teachers back then in the course, in secondary education, he was teaching informatics, so like computer science and things like that. And he introduced me to the world of Adobe. He's the first person that actually saw talent in me, before I knew what I would do with my craft. He actually hired me while I was still in school. So I used to go to school, but I had a part time job with my teacher. And I don't know. He just let me work. And when I started working with him, I started discovering Photoshop, Illustrator, After Effects. But I wasn't great at it. I just knew the existence of the program and I was trying to…
Angela: It’s a start though, isn't it? It's a start.
David: Yeah. I would say a transition from drawing by hand not knowing what you do. And then you actually start doing things on a computer and I don't know, you try to uh, morph into what you do traditionally, into something digital. You try to morph that, but at the same time, back then, I didn't really know what was my strongest tool to use, I will say?
Angela: I was just gonna say it's so good that a teacher actually encouraged you to do that, because sometimes, like kids at school, they can get down that wrong path or someone tells them the wrong word or the wrong line and they just completely change. But that teacher sounds amazing!
David: Luckily, me as a person, I've been very… I would say a lot of people didn't believe in me in terms of my whole journey till today. But I have to say there were always like those two, three people that put a lot of trust in my hands. And I think one of the first ones was my teacher, and he let me realise wow, that's actually something I can do and I'm good at it, but I didn't really consider it like my final stage, cause I wasn't really interested in being a graphic designer, but thanks to that job, he actually, I don't know? I just feel like it was something extra I could learn and maybe use then my skill in a second stage of my life. I never finished my education because unfortunately life happened. I had I would say tragedy happening from my parent side, so I lost my father very early.
Angela: Oh sorry, sorry to hear.
David: Don't worry. He lives in me, so he's always in me, everything I do. But when that happened, I stopped working for my teacher, I had to go to a retail job, just make money to support my mom and try to, we are four boys in our home. So it was very hard sometimes deciding on a career over making money to help at home, you know, so that pushed me a little bit out of that zone.
But then I don't know, I started working in retail, I ended up in a streetwear clothing brand and they did a lot of hip hop nights back then in the days. So I started saying, you know what, while you do hip hop nights. I’ll do graphic design, I can do your flyers, I can do this, I can do logos.
And I don't know, so every place I've been, I've always sold myself as an illustrator, as a graphic designer. So it's funny because every time I ended up in a job, I always ended up doing either some graphic design for them, or I would do some art customisation for them.
Doing flyers, photography, I don't know, even if I wasn't a photographer, I just had a camera. I went out, I took pictures.
Angela: Yeah, why not go for it!
David: Yeah, when they say fake it till you make it…
Angela: Yeah just keep going!
David: It's weird to say fake. I just had this drive of I want to learn, I want to learn. But I literally went out, I did it. And that kind of always. Every time I go out, even if I'm not in my comfort zone, I always come back home with a kind of an additional experience that I then put into my work or for future projects.
After that, for a couple of years doing that job with clubs and all that stuff. I met my partner. She's from, she's a Richmond, but she was born and raised in the Netherlands. When I met her actually, we really had this dream about going to London. She has been in London earlier. I fell in love with London when I went on holiday. So we just decided, you know what, it's time for me to make a change in life. I was really tired of Italy, cause Italy starts feeling like when you try to do your best, but it doesn't matter how much you do, you never go nowhere. because it almost feels like it's not allowed. As a foreigner, it's very hard in Italy. And being of colour also is something like I don't know? It almost feels like they don't give you trust, or when they see you immediately, they always judge a book by the cover and not for the potential that book has. It came to a time that I literally said, you know what, let's just move to London. Let's see what we can get out of London. Let's try something new.
And I don't know, when I came to London, I'd never finished my education back in Italy. But I found out that here you had a foundation degree and I literally jumped on it because my fiancé said, listen, you always wanted to get your degree on your papers. Why don't you do a short foundation degree? Like you, trust me, you can do it. At the beginning, I started laughing at that because I didn't really, after eight years of not studying…
Angela: Did you not believe you could do it?
David: No, I was out for eight years. When you are out of education for eight years, it's very hard to go back and say. It's just weird. You feel you are very older and you go into education and you have all the children around you.
So it just felt weird at the time, but you know what? Because she believes so much in me and she was like, trust me, just do it. Go with it. I just said one day, you know what? Let's try it. I walked in and it's funny because it was exactly how I imagined. I was one of the oldest, and there were other two guys my same age that became my best friends, but I think that going to a new course at university at such a later stage in life, in a kind of way was better for me. Because I already knew what I wanted to become.
Angela: I was actually interested to find out what the course was? You said it was a foundation and where was it? Because obviously London's got a lot of art schools and lots of courses. It'd be interesting to find out what course you actually took after all the experience that you had.
David: It was UAL University of Art, and I was in London College of Communication in Elephant and Castle. So it's an amazing facility. When I walked on the first day, I couldn't believe it, I don't know. I had a shock because in Italy, you have a lot of Italians going to school like this. But when I went to London, it was very different. I saw Asian, black, brown, everything. I was just like, wow, this is, it felt like walking into this multi ethnic room full of people from everywhere. And I was literally like, wow, it's actually quite cool.
It's the first time I just feel like a number, I just don't feel different. There's a lot of people like me, so that was the first time I actually had this. I don't know, you think with yourself when you move to another country, you always expect good things and bad things. And I think when I came here, I was afraid to start the course, but then when I walked into the doors and I see a lot of people like me, a lot of there were all the people, younger people, I don't know, it put me at ease.
So when I walked in, I really embraced the place, and yeah, going back to the course, it was like graphic design and graphic communication. But one thing that I've noticed is, obviously by being older, my approach to it was very different because a lot of people on the course were still finding who they wanted to become or what they wanted to do with design. Some people that were even there didn't even know if they wanted to become designers, they just chose the course. Rather than me. I knew what I wanted, but at the same time I was like, wow, this is graphic communication, this guy does animation, this guy does 3d, this guy does this.
What I did is, I embraced everything, and learned from everyone. And literally I work with one guy today, the other guy tomorrow, and I absorbed from them and they absorbed from me. So it's yeah, almost like collaboration.
Angela: Collaboration and sharing, yeah brilliant.
David: Yeah. Because I feel when I was a graphic designer, I knew I didn't want to do it and I wanted to become an illustrator, but then the older I started getting, I was always pushing myself. How is a way to actually in the future to get more jobs and survive by being freelance? Because in the meantime that I was here in London, I worked more than 12 years of retail. That a lot of people don't know, like I did more than 12 years in retail shops. And then in the evening I will come back home, I will have some small graphic design job. So I will always juggle between part time job, school and freelance work, I never felt like there was stability for me. So what I did is I started learning a little bit of, what do you call it? Layout and InDesign. I learned how to use a bit of After Effects. I play around with so many things and I ask people, can you teach me how to do that?
I just started to put things together so that in the future, like my idea was if anybody approached me, I don't need nobody. I can manage everything by myself because it's powerful. It's not easy because you can't, what I think you can be a hundred percent only in one craft, not in all crafts. You have always yours, mine is illustration, but illustration can relate back to graphic design. Illustration can be making a vector graphic that animates in After Effects, the web templates. So what I said is, you know what? I will focus on illustration, but then attach all this little extra thing that normally a studio will divide the job, the animator will take this, the illustrator shall do this.
Angela: Yeah.
David: I’ll find a way of learning a little bit of everything. So whatever will be thrown at me, I will have a little bit of confidence to take the project and say, I will do it, and I don't know, finish university. I felt like I had everything in my hands ready to explode for this work for that…
Angela: Get a job! Make some money?
David: But then I had another tragedy, I lost my second parent.
Angela: Ohh so sorry!
David: So in life, sometimes I feel like when I was supposed to grow, something will happen and not that you fall again, but it's almost like every time something great happens, something tests you and you do 15 steps forward, then you go 10 backwards, and I think in that moment, it was my moment to shine, but something happened, it threw me a little bit off guard, a little bit off to be honest, but then I don't know, I just uh, yeah.
When that happened, I felt the need at every cost, I need to do something for myself, because it motivates me as well, because it was hard for me to go on to internships and things like that. So I said, you know what, instead of looking for an internship or trying to get with the clients you want, focus on your craft and try to bring your craft at the level that will make you, not content, but at least happy. So when I see my work, I'm happy, but I'm never satisfied about it. It's an artistic thing. An artist will never be happy with their own personal work.
Angela: Really? Even now?
David: Even now. It's because I think every artist is their own worst critic. Because we know the limit of what we do, and we know we could do it better. We know we can improve it. So you always have this.
I think when I will come, when that day will come, I can be proud of the project, to be like, wow, I'm very proud of this one, but I can't say everything I see of me, I will, I would like to redo. It’s a weird thing!
Angela: Yeah, cause looking at your portfolio, it just looks like it's all perfect. It just looks excellent. And I just think. How could you improve on it? It's just, it just looks great, the pieces that you produce.
David: But it's you seeing it from outside, rather when you're in my world and you draw every day you get bored easily, that's why I draw so much because I feel like the more you draw, the more you become consistent. You get bolder with your style, but at the same time, when you do something too much, if you keep on drawing, it might push you in a different new direction, that is cooler than your old style, if it makes sense.
Angela: It does make sense yeah.
David: I’m just in the research of what's next all the time. And sometimes when you do it too much, you just get bored of it. So you try to find different mediums to make it more interesting. It's very still, I want to move it. Let's move it. Let's do the animation. But the animation doesn't make me happy. So it's just playing around. And I think the more you do, you capture a lot of attention from clients and people around you.
Angela: Yeah, a lot, because I was looking at your portfolio and a lot of your work. You have quite big clients it looks like - how do you balance that with personal projects? Do you have time for many personal projects as well as the big clients that you have? Or is it mainly all work now for you all? Because you sound like you want to experiment quite a lot?
David: Yeah, but I do. I do. And I would say sacrifice is all I can say. I think the right word is sacrifice. And when I say sacrifices, we are young ones, and I have a little kid right now. Sometimes people ask me, David, how do you manage everything together?
Routine, discipline, and sacrifice. And the reason why I say so is I've worked nine to five. I've worked for people that didn't respect me. I've worked for people that just take advantage of my talent. And by working by myself, I really found peace and pleasure. But the funny thing is, to maintain that consistency and having always work coming in, you have to sacrifice time that you might go out and drink and stuff, to do something.
If you look at me, my life, if I don't draw one day, I really feel bad. People say my fiancé, she's the love of my life. My kid is the love of my life. Yeah. And my drawing is also the love of my life. And if I don't do it, I will feel very, my body will feel bad. It's weird to say it because I don't know how to say it. If there is something that you do, I call my drawing a gift.
Angela: It’s a passion!
David: I feel like if I don't nurture it it's not fair, it's not fair for me to have that gift. It's a weird thing to say, but how many people have the occasion to have something that they are truly blessed with and natural at from when they are kids. If you see a lot of people like my brother, sometimes they struggle because they have beautiful ideas, they have a lot of talent in many other things, but they still don't know what they want to be in the future. And sometimes you have to do this job, that job, jump, try something new. Rather than me, since I was a kid, I knew that was my thing, so that's why I feel like it's not just a passion, but it's a gift. And if you don't work on that gift, it's almost wow, you're wasting something that is, it belongs, that they gave you. I don't know. That’s the feeling I have.
Angela: Yeah yeah yeah, I suppose it would be, some people would say the divine being would give it to you, but yeah, it's a gift that's, that you, own it.
You own it, it's yours and it's a passion and it's, you've actually also made money from it. It's your business.
David: Yeah.
Angela: How did you get started with making that side of your drawing work for you to make a business out of it? And when you thought this is it, I've made it and I don't need to go into retail anymore. I can, I've made enough money now to do this full time.
David: I think when it comes to making enough money to leave a job, I'm still, I'm doing well, but I still feel, you never know what tomorrow has for you, so I feel like I'm not at that stage that I can just say, okay, let me be chill. As a freelancer, you’re never chill.
Angela: You can never chill!
David: You can be trendy for one, two years. But if that is your specific style, if something doesn't change, you might die out. So everybody wants you when it's very cool and when that trend is over, you may not survive it, that's what I mean with, that's what I mean, that it’s the money part for me. I started, I can tell you a difference of how it was before and how it is now, I think that is. It will make your mind a little bit clearer on how I am, how I change in life.
When I started, I used to work for literally everyone. And I was, do you know I can do graphic design? Do you know, I can do logos? Do you know, I can do websites? I was selling myself so much, that I will bring so much work home, but at the end of the day, I will have made £200 pounds, but I did a hundred logos, I did the whole website design…
Angela: Wow.
David: And it's funny because you're saying, wow, but for me at the time I was like, oh, they're believing in me, let me do it. Let me do it. Let me, I wanted so much to get where I wanted to be. But I didn't understand. That's the difference. I didn't understand what my value was.
When I say the word value, a lot of people out there - it's good to have that step that you underestimate yourself. You sell yourself cheap for the first project, it’s good that okay, I'm not going to take money because they're going to give me exposure, that is a big company, so if they use my work, they're going to promote me to all the people. In the mind of a designer at the first stages, that is always something that is in your mind. It's like a pot bubbling all the time. Oh my God, they're going to push me here. They're going to bring me here. They're going to, but because of that, sometimes you go in a mode like ‘they got me, they got me’. But in reality. Nobody got you. They know what you are worth, and they abuse you because they know they can get something very cheap from you knowing that you will give them something great back. You give them a great job, big company, but then from that exposure, nothing comes back to you in reality. Who got something for free and didn't get nothing, give nothing back. You understand what I mean?
Angela: Yeah totally.
David: So it's, and it's not wrong, it’s right, but then it depends if that person actually would then look after you in the future, or say you know what? You did a great project. We want to bring you on board on this one. Maybe we can figure out if we can pay you something. I believe in that. If we work together. I can do you something free the next time you come, you're like, you know what, David, I respect your work. I'll give you 50 the next time. And if you grow with me, why not let me earn more but yeah.
I went from cheap, to less cheap, to less cheap, till I started being I'm not going to take this project because I started finding out that when you used to go for cheap projects, you will always come back with so many headaches. I want to change this. I want to move this here. I want to, I want the different colours. Can you please be here at five o'clock? I find like when it's, when it used to be cheaper, I would be so tormented every day working and I put so much effort in it. And then I would be like, guys, but if you go outside to somebody, you pay me 50 quid. People pay thousands for this and you make me crazy for 50 quid, then I'll start saying, you know what, from tomorrow onwards, I will not take projects like this anymore because it's not for me. When I'll start saying no to a project like this and just saying yes to a project that I wanted to take, sounds weird, but everything changed for me.
Angela: It was a switch, you made that switch.
David: Every project was a good project. It just switched but I took a risk because of it, and that's why I wanted to say risk is something. Taking risks sometimes is good, because it's not always great. So you need to pay your bills. But sometimes in life you have to take risks because I think the longer journey is more important than the shorter journey because a lot of people, what is the thing, because they need to pay rent, they are like hoovers that just take everything in.
‘I know, but it's 50 quid’, ‘But I need it, man’. ‘I need’ - it's funny. I've been there too. So it's it's nothing to be ashamed of.
Angela: I’ve been there too and it’s nothing to be ashamed of. I think we've, we're all starting out somewhere. It's learning when no one's going to give us. We don't know. And that's another thing, when you're at school or uni or college, no one really gives you the business acumen. Hopefully they're building that into courses now, but like we're starting out. Yeah, I do. As you said, I'll do that logo 50 quid. And now if I design something like. that is not 50 quid anymore.
David: Because now you're putting the value on yourself.
Angela: Exactly. And I've got my experience and such as yourself, you're putting a value on yourself, and you also have that experience behind you. And also, when a client's trying it, they were, they were trying it, they were just trying to get as much value out of you at that time.
David: Yeah. Even when I was like, I used to be an art director for Creams, the ice cream parlour. You remember Creams?
Angela: Yeah. Yeah. I saw that. Did you design the logo?
David: Not the logo, but I came in a moment that they wanted to rebrand the whole company. And back then they had 86 shops. So most of the new shops are still inspired from my older design that I did for them. So like the skateboards, at least the idea of the vision. It's something that I sketched with them when I was working for them, but even then it's never, how do you say it? Talk bad about my clients because I don't know. It's just not good.
Angela: No, it's a respect thing.
David: Every person has a different experience is, but what I wanted to say is even back then I was an art director and we had a marketing director and we always, I don't want to say fight, but we always had a head to head because as an art director doing the work, like I didn't have a team. So I used to do my graphic design. I was art directing, but also doing all the work, but to be in that position, when you have a meeting, I need to be there. When you make a decision on certain things, I need to be there, when when you discuss something because I'm the guy just doing the work, but I also need to give suggestion of what work or what not work, because how can you tell a designer what to do if you don't really have an eye of a designer or if you are too old compared to your target audience?
You can't really, and back then I just used to take it, do the job, stress, whatever. But nowadays, if I walk into a room, if you invite me to do a job or whatever, but you wouldn't consider me, I will just walk out the room. Because as I'm listening to you it's important that you value me as well, because if you bring me on board on a project, you cannot just leave me on the outside and let me do anything you want because you hire me to give you a vision. But then I'm there, I'm talented and you just want to bring your vision on me without having anything to say about it, if it makes sense.
Angela: That does make sense. So without your input. Yeah, no, it's good that you're part of it and you have to be part of it. It's important, but otherwise it could just go awry.
David: Yeah. But even in a bad scenario, what I take out of that job experience is, I became very fast. In the way I think, in the way I produce, having 86 shops all on you and everybody will want something different. It literally helped me not wasting time.
Angela: Sounds quite rapid!
David: Yeah. Just do a thing. So that is a great thing. I don't experience a lot of - a lot of people struggle with creative blockage. I don't.
Angela: Creative block. Yeah. Yeah. You don't, that's another powerful gift.
David: I don't, I maybe have the day that I'm like, ah, I don't know. I don't want to draw today. Or okay, I'll draw something, but it's boring. But I always, I'm always able to create something, in the good days and the bad days. That is one positive thing that I get out of the job. But yeah going back to value, after making my prizes and starting to say no to projects, I got called by an agent, illustration agent. That was the first time in my career that I thought I was charging good to clients, but then when I met my agent in the UK, I understood I was charging peanuts compared to what they was charging. And now that I'm with the company, now that I have my agent from LA. It's even worse than before, and I feel like…
Angela: You see the money as like, Oh my gosh, all this money!
David: It's not, because it's it's not all that money actually, it's just some, that's the fair money because you know what is the thing? You don't have an idea of how powerful - you can do a little design, but that design will bring millions for a company, and imagine if a company made millions and they just give you 50 quid, do you think that is fair?
Angela: Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember that with the Nike logo?
David: It’s the greatest example, but don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Nike… they got so big. If it was me, I would go back to that person and I'll say man, you know what, wow, you gave me a fortune. This is for you. This is a gift for you. You know why?
Angela: I think they, no they did. They did give it. They did remunerate her. They did give her some money. They gave her quite a lot, actually. I think her case was…
David: I didn't know that. I didn't know that.
Angela: That's right. Yeah. For the listeners - she was working for Nike in the, I think in the design department and somebody came up to her, the art director said, can you design this logo for the shoe? And so she came up with a tick. And obviously we all know what the Nike tick looks like. And she was, I think she was an intern, maybe? The art director was like, Oh, this will never work, but they approved it. And Nike loved it. And then years later, her story was told again in the media. I think Nike actually came up to her and gave her the money because…
David: That's the fairest thing. That's the best thing they've ever done. I didn't even know that they gave her money, but it's just because I feel like there are so many stories like her, but they just ignore that. Because remember, I feel like certain companies always start with a good heart, but when they become so big, they forget where they come from, and yeah, but I'm glad that I'm glad that they paid, because of me, I've worked with, projects for friends. We had an idea, it happened to me that I did a logo for a company that actually became quite big. I won't say who or whatever. No, but don't get me wrong. There's no money involved. It was just a friendship thing. We said, you know what? Mate, he said, you know what? I will give you a hundred just because, for the work. Thank you very much. Blah, blah, blah. But this thing went so big. Okay. In a different country, whatever. That's fine. But when it became so big, I didn't expect money, but I was more like you know what? And now that you have a great movement, great clients, good people that have enough money to get some services by me, push for me. I always say this, I'm not in for the money, but I'm more for fairness, growth and work together. Even if I work with you, yeah, and I know you're specialising in something. I will push you before myself because I'm not confident to take that work. So why do something just to take the money when I know there's somebody else that is so great in it, and they will smash it, I want, I don't know how to say it. I want the people that I respect to shine as much as I shine. If I shine, they must shine too.
And when this thing happened, I was quite disappointed because they used to give me credit at the very beginning. Just when the show finished, they wrote a little mark, oh David did it, but when you are there and you work with so many artists and so many people that might need my work, why don't you push for me? I find that selfish because I'm not mad about it, I'm over it. But, it's just certain times people disappoint you because I always feel like that should be fair. If you grow and you become massive.
Angela: That's because it sounds like you're a very kind person too, and you've got a good heart.
David: Yeha and can I be honest, why not be? It’s a lot of people. I feel like sometimes I live in a world where everybody is a shark. And I'm not a shark. I'm just, I don't know how to say it. What is fair, and don't get me wrong. Even if today I believe in karma, I don't know if you do, but karma is…
Angela: I do believe in karma. Yeah.
David: My whole life. Karma. When everything around me is like people that do like this, they won't last forever, but why? I just asked myself why you can be great to people and that person will be great to someone else. It's like a chain. So if you…
Angela: It's a chain reaction, isn't it? Yeah.
David: You understand what I mean?
Angela: Yeah, of course. Do you know what? That's one of my, no, honestly, that is one of my beliefs and my beliefs is to be kind. And I think that's one of the reasons why I did this podcast because I wanted people to hear different stories from different people, especially being of colour, black, brown skins, because it is hard for us to get certain things. And somebody's always given me a chance, always like giving me the next step. And I just think I would like that if somebody was listening to this and they thought, oh, maybe I'll do something kind out of this and that will be the karma that we're passing on. And that's how, that's what I believe.
I'm not saying this for this podcast love, it’s pretty much my way of life.
David: But I loved what you said. That there'll always be someone that will open that little gap for you. And don't get me wrong, that little fact, huh? For them it's a little at a time, but what it opens up for you is something massive and that's what I think a lot of. I remember when I went to the Adobe event, I said this thing of working together, collaborating together and growing together, because a lot of times I feel like when I was in uni, I won't lie, I wasn't the perfect kid. I was smoking and stuff like that. So like a lot of times people didn't…
Angela: Oh we all were, don’t worry about it.
David: Don’t worry. Like I don't smoke anymore. Back then I was>
Angela: Neither do I!
David: And a lot of people always judged me. I think they don't say it, but they always judge me for that guy. I don't know. A stoner guy like that. I feel like maybe that's the reason why not a lot of people wanted to work with me. But then if you look at the people that have always worked with me, I can mention you their names because they are my besties. There's a guy from Hungary called Andras Chuka. There's another guy in India called Aniruddh Mehta. If you see them today. Ani is wow, in India, he exploded, is one of the best designers in India. You should actually check him out, the big fat minimalist.
Angela: Give me the, give me his link and we'll connect him in the show notes so people can check him out. Yeah, definitely.
David: But we are, we were people, we were older, a lot of the time people didn't work with us, so we ended up always working together. But if you see, the fact that we always work together, there was so much love, so much, we put so much effort in everything we do, we all have the same drive, we all had, and at the end of the career of the school, we all had great, experience. Now I can call Ani - he works for Nike, Facebook, Google, you name anybody that has a business in India, you work with them.
And when I talk to him, I don't talk to him like a superstar. I talked to him like the same Ani he was in university. He kept it humble. He's worked with a lot of people. He's always pushed all the people. And for some reason, even if your life is hard, it will bring you back to the path you belong to. That's what I believe. So it's, if it's meant to be, it's meant to be, but you have to, I don't know. Yeah. You have to.
Angela: Yeah. That’s quite powerful to say that.
David: And then yeah, I think the only other thing I can say all this journey, understanding your value and I will always say being of colour is very hard as you said, and I think it's - don't get me wrong - I always try to avoid talking about racism because I just feel like it's such a big part of our daily life and it's funny because I feel like racism is still here today, but it's just not spoken about, or it's just hidden by around kind courtesy, ‘hello, my dear’ but when you come to something a bit intimate, you understand it's not like, it feels because it feels great. It feels okay. It feels not racism, but it's all… there are good people out there. Don't get me wrong now, but I always feel like when you're of colour, it always takes you 70 times more than others. You always have to be the best. You always have to show that you're on point. You always have to be in this certain manner. And in my mind, sometimes I'm just like, that's why I focus on my craft because once my work got so strong, nobody judged me. And it's simply because I don't need to talk. You understand what I mean? So before I had to
Angela: The work is talking for you!
David: Thank you. Thank you. Because because I feel like before, I used to explain myself so much, Oh, I'm a graphic designer. I do this. Please look at that. Please look at this. Now, sometimes I'm like, Oh, what do you do? Oh, I'm an illustrator. And people look at me like, Oh. But that doesn't mean, Oh, great. They're always like, Oh, what do you do? They don't really, they think, Oh, he might draw comics. He might do illustrative, but then they see the work and they're like, wow. Oh but you work for… that's amazing. But then I want to follow you. Can you give me your card? Can you give me this? But why aren't you excited before? If you don't have an example, you have an
Angela: The first initial.
David: Yeah. Thank you. It's always you look at me, you look at the book, that tells you something. When I meet people it's weird because I'm mixed. So I experience racism, yeah, not, I won't say on both sides, but I feel like I experienced racism as a coloured person. And then sometimes because I'm a mixed race I don't always fit everywhere. I fit everywhere, for myself, but I don't really, I'm considered… ‘Oh, you're too light here’. Your mom is Italian. You don't understand. You're 50/50.
Angela: Yeah. I think I get it, it's that continuous identity. Are you this or are you that? And people are looking at you as you said. You know what you are, you're David and you know who you are, and you know what you do, and who you love and what you are in this world. But people, as you said, like face value, when people see you straight up the first time, the judgment is there.
The judgment's there. I could be like, this is honestly, no word of a lie. I've been on a night out with some friends and it was a group of us girls, black ladies, and we're all professionals. And we were coming back from a dinner. And we got a cab, the first cab actually looked at us and drove on, I was like, okay.
And then the second cab we had to go to another cab station. And when we're in the cab station, there were these ladies there and they were white. And they went up to my friend and they basically said, what are you, a social worker? You look like a social worker. My mom knows lots of social workers.
And I was like, She's not a social worker. You're judging because you think we look a certain way and our careers are going to be a certain thing. And my friend was not a social worker. And then it's the same when I tell people I'm a graphic designer and work with branding, they look at me and go, Oh, okay. It's like that. ‘Oh, it's so weird’. It's so weird.
David: It's funny. Stories like yours are like assumptions. People don't get that they can be quite offensive in terms of, I'll speak, I'm born in Germany, but then I moved to Nigeria when I was three and I left Nigeria when I was 12. And I came to Italy for the first time again in Europe as a teenager. It’s weird how I speak all the languages yeah? So when I speak Italian in London and Italian people, some Italian people see me, they're like, wow, come, speak Italian. And in my mind, I'm like, there's a lot of foreigners in Italy, but they don't really come on. There are black people everywhere in the world right now, almost everywhere. But people are still surprised like, Oh, wow. Oh, wow. And the funny thing is one thing that I don't understand, is obviously I'm heavy into black culture. Okay. Because I grew up with my black friends, my black people have been in Africa.
So I'm really proud to say I'm black. Yeah. But the fact that I'm mixed race my mom being, I always say my mom is my heart. My father is my strength. Okay. Because my mom, even if she was European, she moved out of Europe to go and live by herself in Africa, by herself, no family around her. It was so difficult for her because as soon as she will come, people will be like look at this Western woman, she come here. She, now they take the husband here in Nigeria, like everybody. But don't get me wrong. It's not racism. I think it's a problem about history. Okay. Because they have been abused, because of the colonies, because, so there's this assumption are, the white person came here, but my mom, if you matter, everything she did with love, and my mom fought so many battles for a mixed race child, than anybody else. But we will be sitting on a train. People will come on us and push us down on the chair. ‘You can't be here.’ And my mom will say, why can't they not be here?
Angela: What?!
David: And they will be like, madam, please mind your business. These foreigners have to understand. It's foreigners who, these are my kids. And people will always be shocked, I experienced so many of this kind of, I don't know how to say it. That's why if you see my style, my style came from black and white because my whole life is black and white, because it's truly my whole life has been black and white. It's funny to say that it's that's why sometimes because I'm mixed, I fit everywhere. And I don't have, I never judge somebody for how they look because I know as soon as you're alone with that person and you share a moment, we are the same people, I'm an artist, you might be something else.
Angela: Exactly, Yeah.
David: So why always putting this Oh my God. You don't need that because if the world will be a place where everybody just come together and share knowledge, we will grow all together and we will not be struggling right now. You know what I mean? So that's the world I want. But unfortunately today, that's not the world. It’s always a world where you need to be careful who you surround yourself by, and pay attention to, sometimes to the people that I don't know how to say it, I think your circle. My circle is very small, but not because I want it small, but I surround myself of people that elevate each other.
Angela: Yeah
Always. If you see most of my friend, anything they want to do, I believe in everybody that is with me. You know why? Because I believe in them, they believe in themselves, and we do it all together, so it's that's the world I would love to live in. But it's hard though.
Angela: It's hard. It's hard, but it's small steps. And that's even like testament for you, to come, when I actually met you at Adobe the Create Event. And afterwards you took time and spoke to me and I said, I'm starting a podcast. I didn't even tell you, I told you a little bit about what it was about. And you just said straight away, went, yeah, okay, I'll come on. And I was like, Okay. Wow.
David: You don't believe me, but when I say this, you are doing something, so when you do something. And don't get me wrong. I think for you was more the fact of black creative that was very touching for me in general, but in general, like whoever does something good, I always believe in them because you know what is the thing, you didn't need today with me, but tomorrow you might have a young one that says this and say you know what, I was on the same path, but he's actually right. Let me do my thing. Because nowadays the problem is like a lot of young people. I'm not - there's so much thrown at them that they lose confidence in themselves, even if they know it’s the right… look, London, as an example - You're born and raised in London, or?
Angela: I am, I was born and raised in East London. Yeah. Yeah.
David: Okay. When I came in London, the first time, one thing that I noticed is especially Eastern, Southbank, the youth have a big problem in England for me because I come from outside. So I never. I never really experienced that. I had my childhood in Africa, but in Africa it’s very disciplined, but when I came here, I find that the kids have everything, but they just struggle so much.
And tell me if I'm lying, but I think there can be so many talented black kids in the UK, but for some reason they lose themselves when they are outside, they lose themselves with gang life, they lose themselves. And I don't think that if you speak to them individually, each of them have a dream, each of them has a talent, each of them have a heart, each of them has a mind.
And I don't want to say bad things about gang life or whatever, but I just feel like if it's like this - means, there's something obstructing them to believe in, this is me, that's what I want to be. It always feel like they have to wear the shoes of someone else. I don't know how to say it, to make a testament. I don't know how to word it but it's almost feel…
Angela: Yeah that's the right wording. Yeah.
David: Like it feels like when they are talking with their parents, they are wanting, I believe in music. And then when they're outside, they have to be hard because…
Angela: It's bravado. It's bravado.
David: Okay. Yeah. I don't know how to word it. So I think…
Angela: Yeah, yeah, no, because when they meet their, when they meet their friends, or their other peers, there's this certain like element that they have to do something either to prove themselves or to actually look like their… Yeah.
David: I feel like that is a waste for a lot of talent.
Angela: It is, it’s such a sad place.
David: Because I guarantee you, if you give them the opportunity to say you can be who you want to be, and you will be a superstar - from today to tomorrow, everything will change because they will believe in themselves. And there is a big problem with young culture right now. You need to give them something to believe in, because it's tough. It's very tough.
Angela: It’s tough. It's really tough. And the thing is, the thing is the belief, I think that you've got, obviously what your story is and your journey you've got, you've always had a belief. And the thing is, about that belief, has taken time. And I think a lot of the kids nowadays, but this is just me. And because I have children myself and teenagers, I've got two teenagers, and a lot of the things, not from them particularly, but from, things around and what I hear, I think they want things quickly. They don't want to do that work, that’s the thing, and it's about the work and it's also about the belief that it can happen, but it can't be instant. And I think a lot of people think that, I don't know, especially with technology nowadays, everything's so instant, but we can't do it quickly. You have to work.
David: But can I ask you something?
Angela: Yeah sure.
David: But I will ask you something because that's something… I find it very interesting what you said because it doesn't happen quick, so they lose interest sometimes. I agree with you. I agree with you, but I can also say when you look at colour, sorry to say that, I find like when you look at colour, it always takes too long and that it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be right. Because you know what? I feel if you look at somebody like - I've seen many more people, not from colour, finishing education, getting a place, getting this, getting that. And it just looked like. I don't want to say they have it easy because I believe like everybody has their own problem in their own ways, but when I look at the majority of communities, especially black communities, they already have internal struggle at home, economic struggle. They cannot afford a lot, public housing, then they go out, they do the school. So they have so many things that is hard on them already, plus if you have a talent, it needs to take so much extra, you know?
Angela: And time on top of all that, yeah, yeah.
David: If everything was, think about the world where if everything was fair for everybody at the same way, we wouldn't be here because if I see a talent in you, I will say you know what, wow, you can sing. You're amazing. Come with me in the studio. Oh, make some, Oh, wow. Let's try. Let's try. If I know that you're gonna be talented, I will invest in your time. And when you are talented, we get what we…
Angela: We share
David: But we can start from now. Rather now. There's always this thing about it takes so long, but sometimes for people of colour, it just takes too long. I almost gave up.
David: I never say this, but I almost gave up after, what's that? Before Covid, I almost gave up. Okay, because you saw, I took the art direction position and I said, you know what, I will do this. That's it. Let me do a normal work because freelance is not working, blah, blah, blah. Then I said, when COVID happened, I went freelance, because I couldn't take it. And I said, you know what? I will risk it all. The first two months I wanted to cry because nothing happened. I didn't hear from nobody. Then the third month, the first job, then the fourth month, two jobs, then three jobs, blah, blah. And then everything together, then the Asian, then the this. So it was meant to happen for me. But, everybody around me in my same circle have always done so… Straight here. Big company here. Big. And then you're like, wow.
Angela: Are they people of colour? Just out of interest, are they?
David: People of colour, like maybe one is rare, for me it's very rare. The only people I know that may be in South Africa, but they're not in Europe, so I will say like when you go outside or you go Africa, is a big, how do you call it? You have a lot of artists in Africa, but I think the very good, talented artists is very niche, still.
David: So let's say somebody in Nigeria now, Nigeria is big for Afro beats and everything, no?
Angela: Afro beats and music yeah.
David: So you have a lot of people trying to do music and stuff like that. But let's say you have this amazing artist in Nigeria that he just do this particular style. Oh my God. It's amazing. You will have this company. They will always work with that niche group of artists they have. Rather here in London, it’s already competitive because you already have too many. Too many artists, too many people from everywhere, too many stars to look at.
Angela: Everywhere.
David: Too many, it's just too much. So that's why I think the city is a struggle, but at the same time, I just feel like opportunity should be fair for everyone. Because if you gave opportunity earlier in life, earlier stage of life, to a child, that child will embrace it and he will come like 2025, like with a big solid, I don't know how to say it. I just had to work too much, but that sometimes it drives me where I am today. I had to work so much, night and people will be like, oh, David, but every day you post something, I'm like, guys, I need to, but…
Angela: Yeah, you need to keep going, you need to keep going.
David: But you need to be relaxed sometimes, when you have it, but sometimes I just feel this constant feeling of uh, maybe um, maybe I'm not good enough. Maybe I cannot do it. Maybe all this pressure in life has built me in a way that now I just work too much sometimes. When I should switch off, I'm still up. Many years I just sleep like four or five hours every day
Angela: Wow.
David: And people are like, David, that is not healthy, but now this became my routine. So it's weird, even the bad things have shaped me the way I am today, but it gave me good qualities as it gave me a lot of things that are not good in life, but I'm just used to it, so it's crazy. It's a balance.
Angela: It's a balance. Yeah. And you must have a lot of balance now, especially with your family, young family.
Thank you so much for your time again, honestly, I really appreciate it. And I hope the listeners do too. I was just gonna ask about your work and when you were at the Adobe Events, you showed the sphere in Las Vegas. To me, that would, and it was for Martin Luther King Day. Was that one of your proudest moments? Or have you got another proudest moment of your art or your illustration?
David: I would say proudest because I think it's the biggest display you can have. Literally. It's like the biggest display.
Angela: Yeah in Las Vegas!
David: Yeah but Las Vegas doesn't matter, but I was just excited about, that thing is like a massive building and I've not been there live, but if you look at how tall hotels and casinos are, compared to that thing, you'll be like, wow, that thing is huge. You can see it from far away. It's just like in the sky. So I was very proud of it, but don't get me wrong. I feel like not everybody got the message about the concept, because then when I was, as an artist, sometimes you look at comments, to like them, to be like, Oh, thank you guys to, to share. But I felt like a lot of people had a bad, they gave a bad review on it, because they didn't really understand what I was trying to say in the message, and this is the thing that sometimes
Angela: Oh really?
David: Yeah, I had to stop looking at comments or otherwise I would have flipped out and, but it's just weird, because I think thing is, like a lot of people took it like a psychedelic journey, mushroom trip, because it's, my style, it looked psychedelic, yeah. But then there was like, oh, you put the panther in the head. This is devilish. So they really read it.
Angela: Oh my gosh.
David: Very wrong. No, because I interpreted the word, I have a dream. But that is the dream of me.
Angela: Yes. I saw that.
David: Not of Martin Luther King, the head was me, unleash the beast, your inner beast. When I say unleash your inner beast, people always think, Oh beast, it must be the devil. I'm very religious, yeah. But when I say inner beast, it means all the power you have, unleash it to the world, so when people see that, they don't really connotate to, my journey, or what I try to say, they just judge based on what an image tells them. It’s good, freedom of interpretation. But I think when you do something so big and you have so much, there was a lot of people cheering up, but there's also this side of people that… Did it ever happen in your career that you had some, uh,
Angela: Negativity? Yeah. So negativity, I'd say no, I wouldn't call it as negativity. I’d call it as feedback. When I launched my website after many years of not having a website, I put a, and I put it on LinkedIn and somebody commented, said, oh, you should have done this, or you should have done that. But in a slightly negative way. Whereas I had like lots of nice comments and I was just like, Oh, whatever. What else? It's how I saw it and how I wanted it to be. So it's still like that right now. But I didn't change it, but thank you for your comments.
David: Can I mention you one thing that happened to me, Angela?
Angela: Yeah, sure, sure.
David: One time I did an illustration. Because I said, I'm very spiritual yeah - I did a post about, it's weird to say that I did a post about the devil, and I wrote, the devil is a lie, he's a deceiver, and I created an illustration of the devil, but with a title, he's a liar. He tried to tempt you by telling lies. Okay. That was the concept. Yeah. Back in my days, when I was a kid, the pentagram, the pentagram is the star with the devil head in the middle, whatever. I didn't know back in the days, the star of Israel, so the Jewish star okay, back in the days, if you look at many movies, iconography or whatever, they inverted the triangle. Was the religious one, but then you have symbolism about 666, but was the same symbol. Okay. And in my mind, I didn't, I will never, ever listen. I will never, ever insult nobody with religion yeah. But in that moment, when I draw it from a memory of a horror movie that I saw and that pentagram was there. And I showed the person that then give me trouble, that it existed in history. They just change it in a different term in time and they make it a star. Can you believe that when I posted that, clients call me, people called me, what happened? I have threat messages.
Angela: Oh no!
David: People are worried for every... They reached out to all my contacts. Don't tell me how.
Angela: Are you serious?
David: I just wake up after the post that I did something to say, the devil is… The whole thing flipped. And I was like, guys, are you joking? And people calling me, I replied, I fight people on the phone left and right, because you know what? I shouldn't have paid attention to them.
What made me very angry? I'm not that type of person. And then, yeah, one mistake.
Angela: In that one comment, that one thing.
David: That no, but I swear I could, that's why sometimes it's like. I say, I will say, don't always listen to people because if they're not in your space - same mindset, they will never get it.
It don't matter how much you explain it, they will just let you look like the villain, even if you're not the villain. So sometimes you just have to drop it. I had to go to, I think a girl. And it's funny because she contacted five people of my chat. She literally researched the companies who to talk to, blah, blah, blah.
And then I said, please, can you just call me? And I said, listen, look at this image, look at this image. Look at, I'm not lying. I just did it by head and look, that imagery is imagery that exists. And she was, yeah, I know, but this is how do you call it? But please delete it. I deleted it for respect, because I don't want to seem like that anti-Semitic person or whatever.
But if you look at history, how can you? If I tell you, look at that movie, I'm not just talking randomly. I've seen that movie. That was the image that was about.
Angela: You know about it. It exists. Yeah, exactly.
David: It's just like when you don't think - that's why sometimes I try to avoid - I used to be very somebody very black power, this, that sometimes I'm even afraid to post about something that counts to me, because I'm afraid.
Angela: Something you believe in.
David : Because of trouble, because it's not worth it. The hustle. Somebody give an opinion immediately. It's immediately. Everybody wants freedom of speech, but then nobody has it because if you post your mind, we are not the same. So it's…
Angela: Sometimes I think with those kinds of things, especially they always say, I know it's not the same, but they always say, don't talk about politics or religion online because that is like one thing that will get people riled up. But there are things that you believe in that you want to say, and you want to speak your truth about certain things. But then sometimes I would speak those truths within my circle, my, my inner circle not online.
David: But your circle will understand you because they know you.
Angela: Exactly. Because they know me.
David: So they will see where you're coming from.
Angela: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So David, tell me, what's the future for you? And that's a big question, isn't it? What's the future? It's that future with where you, what next plans, what would you like? Who would you like to work with? Maybe pick one of those? I don't know. Or in general, what's your future?
David: No, I cannot pick who I want to work with, there are too many I want to work with. Not like even artists and companies. There are too many. I think I'm not really.
Angela: Yeah. Actually, while we're here…Yeah. Go on, go ahead.
David: Tell me. No, tell me. I'm listening.
Angela: I was gonna, I was gonna say, do you think you, could you see yourself teaching maybe? I feel like you could be an educator.
David: No, I think teaching would be, have always been something, as I said, for me, the young ones are very important, because they are our future, but I feel like there's this.. okay, I will tell you, yeah, it's simple, so I'm not going to make it long.
I would love to teach, but on a later stage in life.
Angela: Perfect. I understand.
David: A later stage in life. And I think, and I think it's just because I like creating so much. That will always lead me away to actually doing stuff. But if somebody will tell me, look I got these children, I'll be like, yeah, let's do it. Because I feel like they need people like me, people like you, they need, they need examples of themselves.
Angela: Representation
David: They need people that have been in the same shoes as them to show them, there is a way out, there is a different way to take, there is ways to grow, and I think it's very important that I do it, you do it, because when they see people that they can put themselves: he's like me, he's exactly like me, he had the same situation, then it's easier for them to actually say, wow. I can believe in that. It can be done, because you need more people like that in any area, music anything…
Angela: Anything in career in your, in stages of life where children want to, or teenagers, young adults want to, or even, adults want a new change, a new path in their career. It's like going into a boardroom in a company and you want to see somebody that looks like you, don't you? It's you just don't want to be. Yeah. Sometimes
David: It's just because it sounds weird, but if you walk in a room, yeah, and there's nobody like you, it happened to me many times. Interaction, the interaction is very different. Okay. You'll be like, hello, hiya. But it's rather, when you see your people, it's funny, but it's yeah, my brother, there's a warm welcome. Every time you go, even if it's loud, ‘my brother’! It just breaks the ice immediately.
David: It's funny, it’s true.
David: Been to many Adobe events. Huh? And I remember when they did Adobe Max, they invited a lot of proper black guys from France. Yeah. I was like, guys, we have you been like, everybody started laughing, hey! But then we start laughing and everybody looks at us and thinks they're so loud. But it is a beautiful thing.
Angela: It's a lovely thing.
David: It is a lovely thing to see somebody like you because I don't know. It encourages you, it gives you more I don't know.
Angela: And you just I don't know, before you're like this when you walk in, you're like that. And then when you like see people, you're like, Oh, I'm cool. I'm cool.
David: And relax.
Angela: I'm sorry. I just did an action. Sorry, people are listening. I just did a video actually where you tense up your shoulders, like maybe walking into a room, then you like relax your body when you see somebody that you can make eye contact and look at them like, Oh yeah, cool. You're all right?
David: Yeah, because believe it or not, but to me, when I go when people say let's go make networking and stuff like that, let's network. We're going to Rome. Like I'm very, I'm the guy that, I never, I only talk with people that are similar to me, and it's weird because we will be the most awkward in the room all the time and that awkwardness. Hey. Hey, how you doing? I'm good. Yourself? Sorry about that I'm a bit shy. Me too. And then we have the best conversation ever, but it's always like
Angela: And I bet you swap numbers afterwards!
David: It's funny about a room where there's a lot of people similar to you, not only in look wise, but even character wise, it's really important that's why having a diverse room can give you the best outcome. Always the best outcome.
Angela: Yeah, just share and bring each other up. Definitely. I got a, hopefully, I think you might've told me some of this, but just to say, just ending on a personal note to yourself, what advice would you give to your teenage self?
David: Wow. It's just because I feel like, yeah, cause I feel like every time it's different cause I would say maybe take a breather sometimes, take time for yourself. Cause I think it's sad to say it, but I feel like I spent so much time behind this art and I feel like it's very obsessive for me, so sometimes I feel like I will have to get there anyway, but I couldn’t, I cannot know, does it make sense?
So I feel like for me, it would be like take more, I will tell to my young one, relax yourself a little bit more. Don't drive every day.
Angela: Take time
David: Take time for yourself. You know why? Because it's sad to say that, when you do it at such an early age it's good because you don't really, you don't really feel it on you. But when you're like, now I'm 37, I'm getting into my forties and stuff like that. But at the moment, I'm exactly as I am. I used to be as a teenager. So always stretch out. Always go over the limit. Always do. Always do. Always do. But it's not always good, because, as I say, love yourself. Love yourself is very important.
But to me, it's, I don't know. I think sometime life bring you to this place, but if I can say myself something, I will just say, take more time for yourself because it's good, because I think I haven't taken off for myself, but I can feel, I can feel it now, but now I have a child. I have my family, so I just live better in a certain way.
I force myself more. I'm okay this year. Stop it. I'm with my kid at quality time. Let me have a walk with him. So now that I do more quality things, I miss the fact that I didn't do it earlier in life too. Cause I was chasing something and now that I have it, I'm still chasing it, but that is the bad - it's good and bad. Does it make sense?
Angela: Yeah. Yeah, it does make sense. I think that's also a creative mind. It's a creative mind. It doesn't stop.
David: It never stops. It never stops.
Angela: It never stops. It never stops. I think I mentioned also, we're going to round up and thank you again so much for everything. But I just, I always do this with my guests.
So I've got five questions and you have to say one or the other. So it's just a fun five fire questions. So crisps or chocolates?
David: I can't, I'm a both guy. I like sweet and I like salty. Not together, but right now.
Angela: You have to choose one!
David: Crisps.
Angela: Crisps. Okay. Beach or forest?
David: Beach
Angela: Book or Kindle?
David: I don't read a lot. You'll be surprised. I don't read. I don't read.
Angela: Okay! Next question. Reggae or soul?
David: Oh my God. Why do you do that? No. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. For me, Reggae and Soul is look, my father grew up with reggae and on vinyls. But I love soul music. Marvin Gaye, Montana, it’s together.
Angela: Ah, okay. Yeah. It's together. I'll say it's together.
David: If I want to jam and relax and this right now with work, I'll put something. Because I think reggae just give that extra. Precaution. So you know. Yeah. But yeah, for me it's the same level.
Angela: That baseline.
David: Yeah. Yeah. I cannot say one or the other… but soulfully, if I need to work, if I work, I would put soulful music because it's more mellow. So you go in a mood vibe.
Angela: A trance, calm.
David: Yeah. Something like that. Yeah.
Angela: Okay. Last one. Okay. I'm gonna make you choose this one. I think you might. So let's see anyway, a patty or a sandwich?
David: Can the party be a meat pie? Cause Jamaican and West African, we do it very different. We don't know.
Angela: I know you've got your pies haven’t you!
David: The meat pie. My brother always come here and he was like, no, David, you need to go take Nigerian meat pie. And I said, no, we have the Jamaican, let’s do it. But every time I bring him to the Jamaican, he's like nah, man. It's not, it doesn't taste like that Nigerian one, there's something missing. I will say patty still, but it's the best thing.
Angela: Oh, that's funny. You made me laugh,
David: But it's true!
Angela: Yeah. Yeah. True. Thank you so much. Would you tell people where they can find you. Can you tell people where they'll find you online?
David: Online on Instagram, they can find me on @d.okuart and my website is simply www.Davidoku.com
Angela: Brilliant. Thank you so much, David, for joining me today, I really appreciate it. Honestly, from the bottom of my heart, and you can tell that you believe in sharing knowledge and karma around the world I think. So hopefully people listening to this can get some good karma back to them. I'll pass it on, definitely. So thank you so much for joining us.
David: That's fine. Thank you very much for having me, on hope I don't know, hope for something better. I hope that people enjoy listening to this and and yeah, finger crossed for a better future,
Angela: Yeah. Thank you so much.
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